Amazon vs Perplexity: Who Controls the Agent?

00:00:00:00 - 00:00:25:06
Unknown
Coming up next, Jeff Jarvis and I break down Amazon's legal fight with perplexity AI over Comet Browser OpenAI's $38 billion AWS deal to biggie Coca-Cola's AI powered holiday ads. Also, Google has a Thanksgiving I ad, and I share two key strengths for Sora now that it's available on Android as well. Don't go anywhere AI Inside Podcast is next.

00:00:35:09 - 00:00:58:19
Unknown
Hello, everybody. Welcome to yet another episode of the AI Inside Podcast, the show where we take a look at the AI that is layered throughout so much of the world of technology. Check in on the news, the biggest happenings in artificial intelligence. We're learning alongside you. And that's what I love about this show. This, the show is hosted by myself, Jason Howell, and my co-host and friend Jeff Jarvis.

00:00:58:19 - 00:01:18:12
Unknown
Good to see you, Jeff. Hey, hey, hey, good to see you. Hey, the mustache is coming along. It it must be, it must be obvious at this point because, because anytime I do a podcast, it's one of the earliest kind of comments like. Oh, hey. So, I think Ron said last night, let's talk about the elephant in the room.

00:01:18:15 - 00:01:38:12
Unknown
And I was like, that's not an elephant, that's a mustache. So I watched the Rodman Derby, on, on MSNBC the other night, and they did a compilation of clips from him. And he at one point he had like a almost a full band shoe. You guys want to say first I made a mistake about this mustache, and I never should have done it.

00:01:38:14 - 00:01:58:17
Unknown
It was a really good use of the moment. The procedure was a mistake, but not say I. Honestly, I'm not certain that it isn't a mistake, Jeff. I just I just continue like. Like I've said many times past, I, you know, I have been clean shaven face Jason, my entire life. And once this started, it was like, well, I'm already here.

00:01:58:17 - 00:02:17:16
Unknown
I might as well see what it looks like a week from now, a week from now, a week. And it's still here. But I sneeze a lot. Like, no joke. I sneeze all the time now. I don't know that I could do that for the rest of my life, so this might not last because I don't like to sneeze that much.

00:02:17:19 - 00:02:36:00
Unknown
Anyways, we'll see what happens each and every week you get and you get, I news. You also get more facial hair on my face. You get to see where it's at. Your facial hair, on the other hand, is pretty constant. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's I right. First, my first day after my parents dropped me off at college.

00:02:36:00 - 00:02:50:15
Unknown
My first college was Claremont. I stopped shaving, and then my mother, who'd never wanted to be a wanted him. She didn't want to see it. And I arrive home on Thanksgiving and she. I was with a friend of mine from college and she makes this big theatrical thing about disowning me and not not very near. Oh my goodness.

00:02:50:15 - 00:03:08:07
Unknown
Hugging me, you know. Yeah, it was my mother. And, and, my hair was too long for them and I was never long. This has grown up in the 60s, and my mother and sister, at one point, I was I fell asleep on the couch and they brought scissors out to my ear and snip, snip, snip. And I just did it.

00:03:08:10 - 00:03:29:05
Unknown
They did? Oh, I was going to say, did they actually cut? They didn't trim. So the only time I've shaved this beard since then was when Leo Laporte shaved it. Allegedly, when we did the 24 hour show and you shaved it as like a challenge for the 24 hour show. Okay, okay, he did it. He shaved me and he did a terrible job.

00:03:29:07 - 00:03:51:01
Unknown
How many times is Leo Laporte shaving? Well, exactly what else? You know, like, I thought I got the battery out, you know, he shaved his head and nearly had to get worse because of it. Oh. Oh, believe me, I remember that all too well. That was, Yeah, that was an interesting scenario. All right, let's talk about the art of fake life and artificial life.

00:03:51:03 - 00:04:21:17
Unknown
Get to the AI. That's not nearly as entertaining as facial hair stories. Let's talk a little bit about Amazon to start things off. Amazon, I believe you put it in here is like the AI browser wars have gone, the legal wars anyways. Yeah. The agent wars there. We go. Amazon suing perplexity AI for and what they're what they're trying to do, it seems, is prevent the comet browser which belongs to perplexity.

00:04:21:17 - 00:04:50:15
Unknown
It's they're a genetic AI browser from making purchases on the user's behalf on Amazon sites from being able to log in and to access the Amazon account of users. Amazon says this violates the site's terms of service. Also, that it introduces privacy risks. And Amazon says perplexity doesn't disclose when the agent is shopping on the behalf of the user, and that accounts to computer fraud.

00:04:50:17 - 00:05:14:09
Unknown
So this is kind of the perspective that Amazon is coming from here. Amazon, apparently sent a cease and desist letter, to perplexity after noticing that comments agents were logging into Amazon accounts and, you know, acting on their behalf. Perplexity responded by updating the browser to evade Amazon's blocks, that were put in place. And so Amazon then sued.

00:05:14:12 - 00:05:39:19
Unknown
So that's kind of where we're at so far. I think it sounds like maybe you think this is kind of ridiculous. What do you think? Yeah, it's a fact. But but as always it brings up larger issues. I mean perplexity is the is the is the company that neither asked for permission nor forgiveness. They just do what they want to do and they do it in a fairly gutsy way, shall we say, a good natty way.

00:05:39:21 - 00:06:01:08
Unknown
And I like that. And and fine, and I think we're going to be in the genic world. So if it's not, if it's not perplexity and their browser, it's going to be other applications are going to be doing this. And as perplexity says, one of the stories in CNBC, you think I was gonna be happy about this?

00:06:01:10 - 00:06:23:22
Unknown
Well, that. Yeah. Exaggerating sales. It's another avenue. It's another, it's another. Yeah. Well pathway to the to making a sale. But on a block Amazon doesn't get the chance to show an agent advertising. Amazon I think feels that it loses some tie on the you know every company thinks we own the relationship. But it's just hubris to think that.

00:06:23:22 - 00:06:40:10
Unknown
But that's what they think. And we control the process and control a process and we control the data and so on and so forth. So that's what pisses them off. The larger issue that fascinates me here is, and I put in a story we didn't put on the run. Now this is too boring and I'm glad you didn't.

00:06:40:13 - 00:07:01:11
Unknown
But about how do we deal with agents and, and and identity and verification and things like that, which is a whole issue. It's important. Yeah. And that's on the one side. On the other side. What, what as you were talking, what brings it out for me in this story is terms of service. How much of a write does a company have to just say unilaterally?

00:07:01:14 - 00:07:35:21
Unknown
If you. This is where we are with all software and all services, right? If you use my service, these are my rules, and you are agreed by them, and we're going to. And if you go to court, you're going to lose because I warned you. It's a really empty, strategy for relationships with your market. And, you know, we see the same thing is happening with, with, scrapers and I, you know, you can tell me that you don't want me to scrape you, but but it's only, Norm that says that I am going to honor robots to adhere to that.

00:07:35:23 - 00:07:49:17
Unknown
I don't need to. You told me to bring them with you. I mean, that's what you say. I say what I say, and you know what? Well, what are you going to do about it, What are you going to do? And I think that's where we're going to end up now. But it's going to be a computer arguing with the computer.

00:07:49:19 - 00:08:13:26
Unknown
And, what right does Amazon have to say you can't send an agent to buy here? Are they saying that to the agent? Are they saying that to me because it's my agent that wants to buy it. Are they saying that to the to the software maker in this case, perplexity? And then what rights do I have in return to say, well, you offer everybody else the opportunity to buy.

00:08:13:26 - 00:08:34:23
Unknown
This is just the way I want to buy. I said, Jason store for me. And Jason bought for me. And you don't know that it was me, right? That's exactly it. I had the same thought. Reading through this is like, what? Yeah. What is a genetic authority? How far does that go? Same. Same as what? You were just saying that.

00:08:34:23 - 00:08:56:23
Unknown
Like, if I hire someone to do my shopping for me, does Amazon a do. Do they even know that I did that? They, they don't because it's not like that person has some sort of self identifying, you know, metadata that travels with them when they use my account. And be like, does it matter? Like I just, I gave my assistant the ability to buy this product for me using my account.

00:08:56:23 - 00:09:18:26
Unknown
Amazon, I imagine, would be okay with that given I actually gave that, you know, legitimate access. And so what exactly is the difference between that person that works for me versus that agent that works in a browser? Exactly. To do my bidding? Exactly. So it's, who knows where this will go. And, there were cease and desist letters.

00:09:18:28 - 00:09:36:11
Unknown
There were legal threats. I don't think there's any suit as of yet. So I wasn't even in perplexity. I'm guessing they're going to hang tough and. Yeah. And they're going to love the fact that they have agents who are actually making purchases. And by the way I'm not sure how many purchases that is. That's a good point.

00:09:36:11 - 00:09:57:05
Unknown
Like I feel like yeah. How how often, how much are people actually using this browser to make those purchases? Or is it just getting them to the final, you know, stage? I, I mean, I'll be completely honest. You know, I've been using comet for as long as I have so far. I haven't actually used it to pull the trigger on a purchase.

00:09:57:05 - 00:10:15:25
Unknown
I still have a hesitation around that, so I don't know firsthand whether it actually does do the final pull the trigger, you know, I know it can get you there to that final point, but do I then have to go in and go click purchase or does it actually do that for me? Well, and then who has to have your credit card information?

00:10:15:27 - 00:10:38:22
Unknown
Is it just executing on what's in the Amazon cloud? That would be my guess. Is you or do you have to give perplexity that information so that it can then complete the purchase? And one of the security issues around that, and I mean, Amazon, I think has a point here and that it can get,

00:10:38:24 - 00:11:01:03
Unknown
Fraud defrauded by an agent coming in and saying, well, I bought this for Jason Howell, but in fact, Jason is I I'm right. And want it. And so then who's liable in that case? Does Amazon end up losing merchandise to fake transactions though? There has to be a credit card in there somewhere. Whose credit? I mean, it is.

00:11:01:03 - 00:11:21:03
Unknown
I don't think that's a huge issue. I'm guessing, like, I, I don't know that I've seen in comment an ability to store. Well, I guess it's a chromium browser, so it probably is in there and I just haven't interacted with it, but I haven't seen a way to like, store my credit card in there and be like for purchases.

00:11:21:05 - 00:11:37:17
Unknown
This is what you need. You know, like in the case of Amazon, like, I know that my Amazon account has, you know, whatever payment methods we've stored in it. And that makes it really easy to do one click purchase. And maybe that's as deep as it gets, as far as the agent is concerned is like, you know, click to buy it.

00:11:37:17 - 00:11:52:24
Unknown
Now, whatever the card is that's lined up, you know, versus going in there and getting really particular and like, oh, I'm using this for a business purchase. I'm using this for a personal purchase. I'd be really surprised if it's doing any of that. But I don't think it's I don't think it's comet that's serving up that that payment method.

00:11:52:27 - 00:12:13:23
Unknown
One could see that coming. One could definitely see that as part of the pipeline of saying, yes, comment, because you're my agent. Here are the cards and payment methods that you have access to going forward. And depending on how I interact with you, you determine which of these cards things go on to. But I don't think we're there yet.

00:12:13:25 - 00:12:37:23
Unknown
No, I don't either. Yeah. Does Amazon have its own agent browser in the works? Is Amazon protecting itself? But even then. Then their age. But that's its own product. Their agent is going to want to make purchases elsewhere. Yeah. Right. In order right. Amazon's you think that Amazon's agent wants to be able to make purchases at Walmart.

00:12:37:25 - 00:13:00:26
Unknown
Yeah. And in a sense Amazon already is an agent for all of its marketplace sellers. Yeah. That's right. Now those sellers have agreed to Amazon terms. And they've certainly you know, they've even used their warehouse in many cases. So that's so those those that's very clear. But yeah, as always every week on these stories, they raise other issues.

00:13:00:28 - 00:13:36:03
Unknown
Yes they do. They're going to be fascinating to watch. Absolutely. Endo OpenAI has agreed to a 38 billion. Speaking of Amazon $38 billion deal with Amazon Web Services. Boy, the, the gates have been lifted. Granted, access to AWS data centers, large clusters of Nvidia chips inside of those data centers. All this effective immediately and part of a wider $1.4 trillion commitment to AI infrastructure.

00:13:36:05 - 00:14:04:25
Unknown
Of course, OpenAI wants to secure 30GW of resources, in the coming years. Which is a massive amount. Didn't waste any time. Right? OpenAI had its recent shift to a for profit corporation. In the midst of that, it kind of rejiggered its relationships and its ability to strike deals with other companies. When it comes to things like cloud infrastructure and boom, they're they're getting in it immediately.

00:14:04:27 - 00:14:32:23
Unknown
Yeah, this, this went this, this went to the good side of Amazon stock, the 38 billion. I saw that, Benedict Evans, who I always quote, said he's so used to the scale of his ridiculous ideals. Now, he thought that there was a zero missing $180 billion, but $38 billion is still impressive. And Amazon's stock, which was which had taken up 10% hike a few days before it took another hike just because of this deal.

00:14:32:25 - 00:14:57:28
Unknown
And people said that it's a meaningful for Amazon, because Amazon was seen as a bit of a laggard in AI. And this says that no, that the that they're on the forefront of it. But then it's it's this constant situation with with OpenAI making I think it's something like 1.3, $1.4 trillion of prospective deals going forward. When he doesn't have the revenue, he doesn't have the value.

00:14:58:00 - 00:15:19:11
Unknown
I just I don't think that AI as a total is a is a bubble yet, I hope. I don't know, but OpenAI keeps looking like a bubble. But I mean, that's yeah, that's what a lot of people there's a lot of bubble talk around around all of this. Right. Wall Street Journal has an article that you put in here.

00:15:19:14 - 00:15:51:01
Unknown
And the headline is, you know, is OpenAI becoming too big to fail? Kind of kind of, signaling it's crossover from AI startup. If that hasn't hadn't happened already, it's definitely happened from a startup to this massive juggernaut that it is. The article points out it's relationships with Microsoft, Nvidia, Oracle now, Amazon, and basically the fact that, like its own success, directly impacts largely the success of these other major players.

00:15:51:01 - 00:16:17:23
Unknown
And, it's yeah, it's in a very pulling the strings position as far as that's concerned. If there is a bubble boy, like the failure of a company like OpenAI could, could ricochet and have dramatic impact on because all these deals that supposedly all these deals. Right. This is built on something. Yeah. It's not focused current revenue and right cases but it is book does potential business its pipeline for a lot of other companies.

00:16:17:23 - 00:16:53:06
Unknown
And you know, as somebody pointed out the other day, in the on lines somewhere, in the, in the internet bubble, it was just using VC money to buy ads to get audience that didn't really want to be there. Yeah, it wasn't tangible. Now it's being used to build data centers. And and you if you go back to the earliest days of the internet, one argument was that the bubble was still productive because we overbuilt fiber and that's what enabled the internet growth.

00:16:53:06 - 00:17:15:13
Unknown
That then followed. So I suppose there could be a similar argument here about data centers that if we overbuilt data centers, well, the market will find ways to fill in the use. And in fact, now as we keep on here, there's a shortage of chips. You can't get enough chips, you can't get enough compute to go, but still, that's a tangible asset that doesn't just disappear when you stop advertising.

00:17:15:16 - 00:17:50:25
Unknown
Now you're stuck with this, with this major, piece of real estate and a lot of a lot of capital investment in it. I'm not enough of an economist to get this. I don't know where this goes. Yeah. But meanwhile Task force OpenAI is looking to do an IPO. Right. Right. And people you know multiple people on the inside basically saying that they're looking at up to $1 trillion of a value, valuation for the IPO.

00:17:50:28 - 00:18:13:27
Unknown
Yeah. So not saying not that you have a lot of extra money hanging around, but I've got close to $1 trillion, you know. Yeah, yeah, you could do. Don't tell me short here. Would you buy open AI stock? I mean, I conflicted all that aside as a developer. Yeah, I like that. All that aside, I don't know, I think I'm, I think I'm reasonably optimistic for open AI.

00:18:13:27 - 00:18:34:14
Unknown
I don't think that there's the. Yeah. I do not listen to me by the way, I have no savings. I am almost guaranteed to always be the person to pick the wrong team as far as the stuff is concerned. And, our bank account can, can say as much, but, yeah, like, I don't know, I think the, the momentum is on their side.

00:18:34:14 - 00:18:56:05
Unknown
That's, that's says something, you know, like open AI to me right now. Feels like Google felt to me when I knew a heck of a lot less about technology, granted. But back in the days when Google was just kind of starting, you know, it it was like, oh, wow, okay, all the momentum is on this one company that's doing things that like literally every move is getting major attention.

00:18:56:07 - 00:19:18:06
Unknown
I don't know, I don't think I would guess that it's not a horrible investment, but I'm not an investor. I don't invest in things like this. So we'll see. Yeah. I mean, how do you feel about that? I'm curious. I think the market momentum would make me say, yeah, give me a piece of that. But all the fears that I just talked about are still extant.

00:19:18:09 - 00:19:42:19
Unknown
Oh, for sure, for sure. So, you know, it's it's such a all that stuff is such a gamble. That's why I don't even play. The first time I ever went to Las Vegas as an adult, I played the slot machines and I paid for my trip. I played for the slot machines, and I played blackjack. Not really knowing anything about blackjack.

00:19:42:21 - 00:20:03:16
Unknown
Total beginner's luck. And I paid for my trip, which was not, you know, this is a long time ago. A whole trip to Vegas when I was this young was probably, like, $300. But, yeah, but nonetheless, I walked away from that trip going, oh, man, I'm awesome. I'm doing that again. The next two times I ever went to Vegas, I lost a lot of money and I decided, I'm not a gambler.

00:20:03:23 - 00:20:19:19
Unknown
I'm not going to gamble anymore. My father always had a rule. He loved going to Vegas. I think Vegas is just. This is you haven't seen how tacky America can get. Do you go there? Yeah. My father would go there on conferences and conventions and that kind of stuff, and he would put 20 bucks at the time.

00:20:19:19 - 00:20:37:29
Unknown
I'm sure now it'd be 100 bucks. Put inflation, put 20 bucks in one pocket, and he would just try to make that last as long as he could. Yeah. And he always said, so I got 20 bucks worth of entertainment. Yep. There you go. And the stock market's a little bit different. But there is something to say.

00:20:38:02 - 00:20:58:05
Unknown
I mean, I got crap on this for when we were this week in Google. I have Google stock because I bought it years and years and years ago, and I'm not selling it and paying the taxes on it. It's there and I've been open about it. Like I said, I would go on this show about it, but, I have it in the past, and it wasn't much money and it turned into some decent money.

00:20:58:07 - 00:21:12:19
Unknown
And so I think if you can look at it that way, is to say, all right, if you believe in this thing. All right, what the heck? Throw in a little bit, throw it a little bit. You can afford on that basis. Yes I would invest in open air. On the basis of saying I want to move my whole 401 K to it.

00:21:12:21 - 00:21:36:05
Unknown
Right. I'm gonna bet the farm on it was, you know, my age now. Yeah, yeah I'd have a real hard time doing that too. I second guess all that stuff to death and yeah to to my detriment sometimes. Anyways, all this to say, do not take our advice on anything when it comes to financial stuff. This discussion.

00:21:36:07 - 00:21:57:28
Unknown
Would you be better off with ChatGPT advice than ours? Almost guaranteed. I can. At least I can at least say that about myself. I'm not going to speak for you. Oh no, that's definitely the case for me. So. So, all right, we are going to pause and take a little break before we do just a quick, quick reminder that we have a Patreon that you can support this show.

00:21:58:00 - 00:22:17:17
Unknown
If you are a big fan of what we're doing and you'll like what you see and hear each and every week, like Dan, Jesse and Corky Darko, three of our amazing patrons who support us month after month. You can go to Patreon.com slash AI inside show and through support behind the show, throw us a couple bucks a month.

00:22:17:24 - 00:22:35:19
Unknown
It helps drive this show forward. And, you know, give us this involves you in the community of AI. Inside there is a discord there. You know, there are some exclusive videos that that get posted from time to time through the Patreon. But really it's it's just a support mechanism. If you like the show, you want to see it continue.

00:22:35:21 - 00:22:44:26
Unknown
This is your immediate and direct way to ensure that Patreon.com slash AI inside show, and we take our patrons for being so awesome.

00:22:44:26 - 00:22:54:21
Unknown
Go take a quick break on the other side of the break, we're going to talk about a story that I've heard a lot about. Maybe you haven't as much because it's about music generation products like UDL.

00:22:54:28 - 00:23:01:23
Unknown
It's a case and we're going to talk we're going to dive right into it because there's some really interesting aspects of this coming up here in a second.

00:23:03:14 - 00:23:26:06
Unknown
All right. So let's say about a year ish and change ago I did a couple of videos on my YouTube channel, at Jason Howell focused on audio, which UDL is a music generation AI tool gave you. You know, it's basically like image generation, but for music, it gives you all these controls, all these parameters that you can dial in.

00:23:26:06 - 00:23:54:04
Unknown
And yes, you can put your word prompt in there to say what you're looking for. But then you've got all these other controls that allow you to kind of rein it in or let it go wild or do this and that. And, I, you know, I played around with it from a perspective of being a musician and wanting kind of like a creative partner in the studio to give me ideas that I can explore, not necessarily to create top to bottom songs for me, but to just to say, here's the song I'm working on, what would you do with this?

00:23:54:04 - 00:24:20:21
Unknown
And then it gives me ideas and I'm like, oh, that's a great idea. And then I do that. And so but over the last year, you know, it's been youdo versus, you know, essentially those are the two key players in music generation space, both of them very targeted, with lawsuits because as so much in the world of AI, it's it's very kind of uncertain how they trained their, their models to do what they do.

00:24:20:21 - 00:24:57:11
Unknown
And, you know, definitely came under the microscope, under the spotlight from Universal Music Group in a pretty major copyright case that is now settled. And the settlement here. If it hadn't settled, youdo would have just disappeared. Know, like they would have just been driven into the ground, because I think it was becoming pretty obvious that they trained their music on, you know, on copyrighted material, unlicensed, and that that was going to be, you know, potentially be deemed not okay.

00:24:57:11 - 00:25:18:27
Unknown
You know, in the eyes of the court, potentially, I say, but definitely the music industry was coming full throttle on these companies to say that's not all right. Well, as we've talked about in the show in the past, the music industry, I think it's become clear isn't anti Gemini their anti genii that they don't have control over that.

00:25:18:27 - 00:25:57:04
Unknown
They're they don't make money off of that. They're you know that doesn't give their artists the ability to opt in opt out you know make money that sort of stuff. Even though their artists would probably make a a pittance compared to what the labels and everybody else involved in this stuff. Well, anyways, this settlement basically means that Universal music and audio are going to create a joint subscription service that is fully licensed that does adhere to, you know, certain rules and, and allows artists on the labels to opt in.

00:25:57:07 - 00:26:19:28
Unknown
So if they don't want to be take part in this, they don't have to. And I think what sparked some major backlash on the, on the, you know, on the side of, of the users of youdo is that hours before this deal was announced, UDL very quietly switched off the ability to download any music from the site.

00:26:20:01 - 00:26:40:01
Unknown
And so, was kind of built around this idea that, like, what you create is yours and you can do whatever you want with it, and then they switch off downloads and then a few hours later they announced this deal, which is that, you know, you you had to agree to this with, with universal. And there's no more downloads on the site.

00:26:40:08 - 00:27:00:04
Unknown
The music belongs to you, to yo, and universal. Thanks for the fish. Everything that you've created is now feeding this thing. And users were just they were pissed. They were not happy with that because they they truly I think that, you know, there's a lot of people that use these services like it's it's easy to look at this and be like, oh, it's so silly.

00:27:00:04 - 00:27:26:15
Unknown
Like you're just entering in words and creating music that you didn't actually create the system did. But people, I think over time, felt a lot of ownership about this because they learned how to use the system and they learned how to work within the the confines of the system and create things they felt very emotional about. And musicians were using this as a tool, as a music collaborative tool, similar to the way I was using it now suddenly can't be used that way anymore.

00:27:26:18 - 00:27:48:05
Unknown
And so it's just an interesting kind of example of what, I don't know, maybe it's a harbinger for what's what's to come in some of these other lawsuits. And, and also it's a, it's a point to drive home to say. And I've always felt this about anything in the cloud, any of these services, you think you own it, but you don't.

00:27:48:08 - 00:28:11:04
Unknown
You never truly understand. Yeah. You're you're loaning it the they're loaning it to you until they decide they own it fully. You know, cue Cory Doctorow and I should ification. Totally. So they they are allowing a 48 hour period where you can download what songs you had on it, right? After a lot of pushback, you finally said, okay, we'll give you 48 hours.

00:28:11:06 - 00:28:30:12
Unknown
You can download that place Monday to Wednesday. I think. I think it's done now. So if you didn't get your stuff. And so now YouTube has a deal with part of its deal with universal settlement is that you can go and you can you can use universal artist songs to make songs, but they're just not yours. Is that the deal?

00:28:30:12 - 00:28:52:24
Unknown
They're not. I think that will be the case. I don't think that's in place yet. What stays on YouTube. But that's the plan. It stays in YouTube. And I think they you know, I think part of this, if I had to guess, is that universal wants to wants to monetize around the desire for people to make their own versions of, Kendrick Lamar song or whatever the artist is.

00:28:52:24 - 00:29:14:07
Unknown
You know, given that artist is okay with it, but they don't want users to sell those songs or present them in legitimate music places like Spotify and stuff, to where they might actually make money off of the artists likeness. That's my guess, is why they're controlling, or at least one aspect of life. It raises all the issues we talk about constantly on the show.

00:29:14:10 - 00:29:39:07
Unknown
I'm sure copyright an intellectual property and such and, well, fugitive things. One is that music is is is again the first major target of this. And it was true the internet with Napster and it's true now with AI and this case where for some reason music becomes the first battlefield. It's where the snowball turns into the avalanche.

00:29:39:09 - 00:30:10:18
Unknown
Right? Secondly, music is unique creativity. A news story is not, a nonfiction book unless you quote it. Exactly is not. You can't own facts, only the treatment of them. Right. But music is unique and and whether it's the creation of the song or the performance of the song that's long been protected, nonetheless.

00:30:10:21 - 00:30:30:06
Unknown
As long as it doesn't up. And because we see all these all these copyright cases around music where oh four notes, that was four notes that Michael Jackson did that so-and-so didn't do. And you know. Right. And I'm sure you as a musician, live in fear of having remembered some riff. And to the back of your head, you don't know where you heard it and oh my God, certainly.

00:30:30:09 - 00:30:57:13
Unknown
Yeah, I have had that experience, that right. I don't fear it very much because I'm not a very popular musician, you know what I mean? I'm not I'm not too concerned about my music, you know, getting me knocked somewhat out of existence. Yeah. Your first big hit, you know, Yeah, I guess you never know, but I would argue here, as with text, that training, as long as it's not replication, is fair use.

00:30:57:16 - 00:31:24:21
Unknown
And so this is not been tried in court. They settled out of court, obviously. And so this issue still stands to be something player. And what is training. What is fair use. What is transformative. Those issues still rise. And we saw one case of it. Where did it go through court on anthropic. And text.

00:31:24:24 - 00:31:52:25
Unknown
But now on music it still hasn't been adjudicated. And so, so we'll see. The other there you know, part, a part of it was the procurement. Right, right. How did how did Uyo get access to this music. Did they. Yeah I mean I mean that's a that's a big part of it. If it's digital and it's online, are they using a logged in right to account or did they go because are they, you know, subverting, DMCA, DMCA protections on YouTube videos.

00:31:52:25 - 00:32:13:09
Unknown
Right. You know, all those things can can really but in this case, all you'd have to do is play a song for the, the, the AI in the model. It doesn't have to I mean yes, in fact you would download the digital version of it, but you could literally play it could. Yeah. Right. You could buy the CD and play it.

00:32:13:12 - 00:32:36:04
Unknown
And as long as it doesn't replicate it, but still has in the style of Gita that, that, that reminds me of Queen, but it's not queen. Is that okay? You know, it's the same thing if I'm if I'm a queen tribute band, and that's. Yeah. I would never want to see, actually, that might be my next or a prompt.

00:32:36:04 - 00:32:57:17
Unknown
Is Jeff Jarvis in it? Queen? Yes. Agreed. That bad? So, yeah. I didn't see the earlier discussion about about terms of service. So I buy that CD. But somewhere in there there's fine print that says, here's what you can't do with it. Right? Have I violated that just because I bought it and I did I really agreed to it because I bought it.

00:32:57:19 - 00:33:23:03
Unknown
Yeah. Or what rights. How to buy it and how how, modern are the rules and the laws that, that rule around that because we're talking CDs here. Like that's old technology. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I have to imagine that, you know, other companies that do this, you know, being the other shining example, probably next as far as this is concerned.

00:33:23:05 - 00:33:44:07
Unknown
Yeah, I mean, I, I appreciated what UDL was when I played around with it for the use that I had. And so I haven't used it in a while just because I haven't had a whole lot of time to make music. But if I was making music on the regular, I probably would tap into it from time to time to do what I use it for then.

00:33:44:07 - 00:34:09:00
Unknown
And to that end, I'm I'm kind of sad that like that isn't really possible anymore, at least. At least now. Possibly and almost certainly temporarily. Like there's probably going to be some music creation tools that are created from that mindset and done, let's say, in a more legitimate matter that, you know, that doesn't tick off the music companies, but will be as good.

00:34:09:00 - 00:34:32:07
Unknown
I don't know, it might not be or it might be great, but, yeah, so is control. What is your you'll become you can listen to. Yeah. Stuff just there I don't know I think so I think it's like here's a, here's a market here is a streaming service that is just well, it's actually I mean, I know we're going to talk about Sora here in a couple stories, but it's kind of like Sora.

00:34:32:10 - 00:34:57:28
Unknown
Sorry. Just where I was, just, you know, is a video creation. Social media platform. I mean, you can take those things, though, and put them on other platforms. You can download the video in the case of Sora, and you can't do that with with UDL. Yeah. Oh, hello. So we've got a fan, tuning in. Danny, Michelle says, hey, Jason and Jeff.

00:34:58:00 - 00:35:29:24
Unknown
Apparently five published tracks from youdo this past Monday. Okay, so you are a fan. You're a user. There you go. Probably won't be publishing those tracks much anymore because you won't be able to download any of the new stuff. But I guess if you downloaded your library, you could publish them all. And I think people who use like Spotify and some of these other music streaming services, there is a big push back and resistance to, AI generated music making its way onto those, those libraries.

00:35:29:24 - 00:35:52:15
Unknown
So there's probably a lot of people celebrating this as well. Like, great, we won't have your, you know, your slop, hitting our, our music feeds. So I'll be curious to see where that goes. Then we have Getty Images and Getty Images has a loss to stability. AI they're the makers of stable diffusion. At least in the UK.

00:35:52:15 - 00:36:18:29
Unknown
There was a copyright case happening there. Getty had accused stability AI of using its copyrighted images to train the AI model, but had to drop key claims in the middle of the trial because of insufficient evidence. They could show that the Getty Images watermark could sometimes be replicated, but couldn't show that wholesale images were replicated. My understanding.

00:36:18:29 - 00:36:46:14
Unknown
Anyways, because as we know, after all, these models aren't storing images. They're storing relational data about these images tokens, tokens and so the judge dismissed secondary copyright claims based on the fact that because stable diffusion model does not store or produce full works, it doesn't create infringing copies. So I think that's fair. That's in the UK, that's in the UK, and it's only part of the case.

00:36:46:16 - 00:37:16:06
Unknown
The other part they had to drop. I love this legal language. Two intellectual property lawyers, said to Reuters that Tuesday is really, the that, rendered Tuesday's ruling a damp squib for law in AI because because that part of it was was, was eliminated. It really doesn't say a lot. But still, every case we see, including the anthropic case, nudges toward, a little bit further fair use.

00:37:16:08 - 00:37:42:10
Unknown
Yeah. It's right that that's kind of what I thought yesterday is. Maybe this case doesn't set precedent necessarily. And the UK, as you said, ants in the UK. But more and more we're getting a little bit of the temperature around this. And it seems to, like you said, pushing closer and closer to fair use, you know, and again, maybe the differentiator is how did you procure the source data.

00:37:42:10 - 00:38:04:02
Unknown
And that becomes a big deciding factor. But but we're not getting cases that are making its way through and giving us wide reaching precedent. So there's still a lot to learn here. But, yeah, even the judge in this case admitted that the impact of this cases is pretty limited in scope. Yep. There there is a use case also.

00:38:04:02 - 00:38:32:23
Unknown
Getty images versus stability AI remains to be seen how that's going to transpire if it goes down a similar direction. This UK case will not have any direct, you know, impact on that, I would imagine. I'm not a lawyer. I don't even play one on TV. No. So so yeah, interesting stuff there. But we did mention Sora and I almost left it out because I know I've talked about Sora a lot, but it keeps it keeps fresh in my mind for a couple of reasons.

00:38:32:23 - 00:38:53:13
Unknown
So there's definitely, some have something on my mind about saw that I want to talk about before we talk about it. Just a few pieces of the news related to Sora. This is OpenAI's image generation app. Now. It's kind of like a social network, essentially, which is kind of interesting. They finally launched their version of the Android app.

00:38:53:13 - 00:39:17:06
Unknown
So, Jeff, yes, you too can download Sora on your phone and oh, I don't know. Capture a cameo of yourself. Give it all of your identity, your facial features, and your voice. So let people create videos about you. I don't think so. I don't think you're going to, Which is weird, because I'm all almost sure I'll do anything.

00:39:17:06 - 00:39:39:14
Unknown
I'll use everything. Yeah. This this. I found my line. You found your line. Don't mess with me. Yeah, yeah. Interesting. And so is the. Is that line there because you're concerned that someone's going to do something that you don't approve of? Yeah. That kind of thing. It's it's red meat for trolls. Yeah. Right. Yeah it is yet.

00:39:39:17 - 00:40:06:05
Unknown
Yet. And this. But this might be kind of like like where I get to here is, the thing that I'm that I'm really, captivated by with Sora as an app, as an app experience is that there's kind of two things right now that I'm getting out of it that I'm not getting in other places. And there are two things that, like, I feel the need for in my life right now.

00:40:06:08 - 00:40:18:12
Unknown
One is the platform is filled with kind of unfettered creativity. Like, you go on that platform, you're not you're not going there to.

00:40:18:15 - 00:40:49:04
Unknown
Every, every direction you look is someone came up with a really wild, stupid, you know, crazy idea and it becomes visualized and it gets put into motion and put into sound. And it's just, it's it's full of ridiculousness. And and that ridiculousness is inherently creative. Now, you know, a person didn't create it, but a person in some way, shape or form was involved in, in feeding it a line or feeding at a prompt and understanding how to get it to get to that point.

00:40:49:04 - 00:41:11:15
Unknown
And so everywhere you look on the platform, every example is some sort of creativity. Good or bad, doesn't matter. It's creativity. And the second thing that I'm getting out of it is light heartedness, which I think goes to what your, what, you know, kind of what I, you and I think your fear is shared by a lot of people and I'm not by the way, I'm not trying to convince you to use it.

00:41:11:17 - 00:41:33:01
Unknown
I'm just saying what I'm getting out of it is this is a social network that really has no negativity on it. It's all lighthearted stuff. Every time I go there, it is just jokes and ridiculousness. And yeah, it's a little weird, whatever. But like when I go through and check out what's on my feed, I'm almost guaranteed. So I chuckle to myself, really?

00:41:33:02 - 00:41:52:26
Unknown
I'm a laugh. You haven't seen anything. That's that's, let's say politically. No. Wow I haven't wow, I haven't I'm not saying it's not on there. I'm not saying that someone hasn't bashed the guardrails enough to be able to produce it, but my feed has been pretty darn clean. And it's not just filled with people that I'm following.

00:41:52:26 - 00:42:18:09
Unknown
It's filled with people that I'm following and others that it's ceding to me. It's just all like enjoyable for me because I, I find that a big difference from a lot of other social media out there. I wonder how long it takes for Godwin's Law to take effect. That is to say that any discussion ends up bringing in Nazis, and an accusation thereof.

00:42:18:11 - 00:42:39:02
Unknown
You know, and I also, I'm a Howard Stern fan, and part of the joy of Howard Stern is that they bust each other's gonads, to recycle that from earlier, on the show. And, and, you know, it's good natured and, you know, they're having fun with each other and, you know, you've been in offices or locker rooms or wherever the same thing happened.

00:42:39:04 - 00:43:01:24
Unknown
And so it's okay, but it's okay because it's in a contained. Yeah, there's some control over it. Right. So I could see that if saw if, if saw were on Facebook and only my friends could, mock me with it, would I then allow my, like, this to be used? Yeah, maybe. In fact, my ego would demand it like nobody's taking the time to make fun of me.

00:43:01:25 - 00:43:12:00
Unknown
Yeah. How come I'm not in any camp so you can do that, right? Yeah.

00:43:12:02 - 00:43:35:25
Unknown
But I still, I don't know, I'm still nervous. Yeah. I mean, I had an impersonator who wasn't funny. Yes. Oh, totally. And that's minor. I'm a white male, old, you know, cis, suburban. And I'm, I'm often in favor of openness on the internet and the discussion and all that. And it's easy for me to say, because that's who I am.

00:43:35:28 - 00:44:06:25
Unknown
So I don't even know what happens if you're a woman, if you're LGBTQ, if you're, from an underrepresented group. Yeah. That's what I fear about this stuff. And it's nice that it's it's serendipitous and fun now, but I don't know how it stays that well. Yeah, that that is that is a big question. That's certainly something that I've, you know, I think a lot of people, you know, and actually we have, Rob Collins who's watching live stream, says you do lose control of the one thing you were supposed to always have control over, which is yourself.

00:44:06:27 - 00:44:40:15
Unknown
Right. And, yeah, I mean, there's there's definite truth to that. Like, I, I do realize that my what I said about it is kind of a short sighted, a short term view, because I don't actually know that open AI isn't going to suddenly go full grok in, like, you know, two months and take the reins off of it, and then suddenly I don't have control or or go full youdo and kind of close the gates and take everything that I've created and feed that into something else that I, you know, didn't approve of or whatever.

00:44:40:15 - 00:45:01:16
Unknown
Like, you know, the same caution goes when we were talking about youdo is that you never truly own this stuff. It's, you know, very temporary. It's like my experience with it right now. It's giving me a certain thing. I don't know that I expect it to always give me that certain thing, that lightheartedness. But right now it is.

00:45:01:18 - 00:45:21:25
Unknown
And I'm appreciating it for. Well, that's good. So I guess it's in that spirit that. Yeah. Altman, proposed to brands that they should put their mascots and characters up on for to be reused. And I looked at this and others on the socials when I, when I shared this and said, oh my, what are you smoking?

00:45:21:27 - 00:45:48:11
Unknown
What brand would put up, you know, so my response was that I await the limu emu snuff videos. If you don't want, I don't know. Do you watch enough commercial TV to know what I'm talking about? Jason. No, no. Okay, so this is the problem. Well, when you said Libra inu, I thought of Shiba Inu that this is this is this is, Liberty Mutual Insurance as commercials with an EMU, and they're never ending.

00:45:48:13 - 00:46:19:13
Unknown
They're constant. I'm sick of them. So if I had the opportunity to slaughter the emu using Sora, I probably would, because it would feel good. It'd be gratifying to get rid of this thing. And God knows what people would do with the Pillsbury Doughboy I hate. I shudder to think what could happen. Right? I can't imagine that any company would want to put up its, brand character in that way.

00:46:19:15 - 00:46:48:14
Unknown
Yeah, well, you know, I have been playing around a lot with androids, android figurines and. Oh, you gotta talk. You gotta. You gotta prompt creatively in order to get it to actually replicate the Android figurines. But yeah, you can and, you know, it's it's ridiculous. I don't know, like, that's the thing. Like, I can, I can see where this kind of stuff could go bad.

00:46:48:17 - 00:47:16:06
Unknown
Having said that, I've used this enough to not see it yet. I haven't noticed it yet. I only see, you know, kind of curious and interesting and and, I don't like, you know, like, this is this video that I'm showing you. If you're watching the video version, like, it's, you know, it's not like it. It took the viral, you know, internet by storm, but it's just like a massive army of Android bots surrounding me through it, through a, ring video doorbell camera.

00:47:16:06 - 00:47:36:09
Unknown
And then they, you know, they they attack the, the ring video camera and it fizzles out. And I don't know, like, it reinforces the brand and it's inoffensive. Yeah, but it's kind of it's kind of now it's kind of quirky. It gets people engaged with the brand feeling old. I'm feeling like an old fart, which is bothering me.

00:47:36:09 - 00:48:07:24
Unknown
Yeah, I know, yeah. That's right. Conservative. Yeah. Yeah, I, I but I, I'm and none of that is to say that I don't understand where you're coming from. I totally get it. I as a brand, it would be a lot to hand over the keys and just say, all right, world, have fun. You know, do do what you want with Ronald McDonald and guaranteed Ronald McDonald's probably going to end up in certain scenarios that McDonald's would never have guessed or would never have wanted.

00:48:08:02 - 00:48:29:09
Unknown
Does McDonald's have control over that? You know, from some sort of behind the scenes control center? Yep. You know, yeah, it's kind of it's kind of akin to having an ad that appears next to an article about a topic that you absolutely don't approve of, you know, as a brand. And yes, it's all toxic to your brand.

00:48:29:09 - 00:48:53:15
Unknown
Sam put himself up for this, you know? So, yeah, he's eating his own dog food, but yep, yep. Yes, indeed. Anyways, it's been an interesting kind of, service to play around with, and I didn't I didn't quite expect to enjoy it as much as I now. Like. I open it because I know that I'm going to get something lighthearted out of it, and I appreciate that about it.

00:48:53:18 - 00:49:09:03
Unknown
We'll see how long it lasts. At the same time, social media is exhausting, and I think I think a lot of people have found an exhaustion point with it at this, at this stage. And do you here's just a question, and then we'll move on.

00:49:09:05 - 00:49:35:19
Unknown
I mean, X is, is is a is a cesspool. Facebook is Facebook, Instagram is Instagram. But no matter what you think of them, I get something out of them. Right? I learn news, I find out what's new with a friend, I get a laugh, but it's related to something in the context of someone I know because story is entirely made up.

00:49:35:21 - 00:49:58:03
Unknown
I'll ask this in an obnoxious way. Sure. Do you ever learn anything there? And by learn, I don't mean like a PhD. I mean just even a piece of information. The news, how people do it. There's nothing. There's nothing informational there, right? Nothing. Not that I've seen. You can't. Because. Because it's made up. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, you could prompt around it.

00:49:58:03 - 00:50:17:24
Unknown
I could prompt around it and say, this character says this, this character says that. But I mean, my experience of using it in that way is I get things that are far less enjoyable than if I just give it. Yeah, kind of like a general sense of what I'm looking for and just kind of let it go off the rails a little bit, right?

00:50:17:27 - 00:50:43:05
Unknown
Yeah. No, I don't get anything informational from Sora. There's nothing there. I'm not learning anything from Sora. I'm just. I'm just laughing at it like a dork. Yeah, well, I don't, and wanting to create dorky stuff. Yeah, right. It. Right. And the creative side of me that that just enjoys kind of creating things that didn't exist before sees it as a unique tool to do that.

00:50:43:05 - 00:51:05:00
Unknown
And I love creativity. I love it for that. Well, all right, let me ask you, I turned around, I lied, I was not the last question. So from the creator's viewpoint, is it self-expression? What's the definition of self-expression? It's it's it's expressing something I want to express to people when they watch it. They understand something about the world or me or something.

00:51:05:00 - 00:51:29:24
Unknown
Right? Is it gratified? So how is it here? I hear you saying it's gratifying, even in a fun way. As a creator, is that true? Yeah. I mean I think to a certain degree it can be self-expression. Even though I only have so much control over it. Right. Like I'm just kind of scanning through some of the like, I like the Android be even taller than Jason.

00:51:29:26 - 00:51:55:28
Unknown
Yes. Well now what I ask it, do you play basketball? So, you know, which is a question I've gotten and I'm sure you have to so much throughout. I always told the coaches it's not what it looks like, right? Just because just because I have height doesn't mean I'm good at playing basketball. I mean, there is a bit of self-expression here because all of these like this, you're making video that I'm made for yourself with your Android.

00:51:56:01 - 00:52:18:05
Unknown
Oh, totally. You're absolutely making my sound, right? Right. Yeah. You know, this was me sitting on the couch with my daughter, and I said, all right, give me a scenario. What do I do? Do you want to do a video? Yeah, yeah. What do you want to do to dad? And she's like, you're at a pumpkin patch and, stock of corn eats you, and you fall into its stomach, and you end up in the game of Candyland.

00:52:18:08 - 00:52:41:17
Unknown
And I'm like, okay. And that's exactly what it did. And, you know, and I love it, you know? And so did she create this top to bottom with her bare hands. No. But she had a creative idea and it turned into something which is sufficient because. Because if you if she came to you and said, dad, I just spent a whole month making this, you'd say, are there better things to do?

00:52:41:20 - 00:52:58:13
Unknown
Yeah. All right. Yeah, I, I'd actually honestly, I'd be pretty impressed. Yes. Like wow. That's true. You got there you know. Yeah. But I mean it is ridiculously, you know easy to do this. This was a single prompt. And it ran it worked perfectly for for that. And we were both very happy with it. You both got to laugh out of it.

00:52:58:18 - 00:53:18:28
Unknown
Yeah. You know, if you if you look at my feed, you'll see a lot of horror movie influenced stuff. That's an expression of like who I am. Like, I've always loved horror movies. And so here's a way for me to, like, create silly sitcom, intro videos about Freddy Krueger. You know, at a retirement home in Arizona. You know, what is this?

00:53:19:00 - 00:53:40:23
Unknown
What's that? What's on your face? This. Yeah. That video. Well, no. So this is Freddy Krueger from Nightmare on Elm Street series. So his his face is horrifically disfigured. No, no, no, the one that's just the little, like, Band-Aid thing you look at. Oh. Oh, I woke up and I had a, smartphone, zit. And so I wonder, should, you know, do you pop a smartphone?

00:53:40:23 - 00:53:59:05
Unknown
Said, I don't know. Is that what you do when you wake up in the morning and you've got a zit? The shape of, of of, smartphone, I don't know. Oh, yeah, I can see it is a reflection therapist's. Yeah, yeah, it's like it's a different type of. It's a different type of personal reflection on creativity and and what we find funny in everything.

00:53:59:05 - 00:54:18:17
Unknown
But certainly I'm going to throw a prompt in there that's never existed before. Now, what's come up with yourself up there? Yeah. You decided whether or not others could use you or once you're there, you're there. I have created a cameo of myself that I have made public. I have control, you don't have to have how public that is.

00:54:18:17 - 00:54:40:20
Unknown
You don't have to. Okay. And then when I publish an idea to my feed and those settings are in line with that, then somebody can go in there and choose to remix or choose to include me or whatever they can, they can respond to that in any different. Because now that is, I can, I can, I will. Yeah, yeah, I totally it's not I have to watch it a week.

00:54:40:20 - 00:55:05:26
Unknown
I'm going to be I'm going to be showing them 100 videos and check this out. One thing I will say though is that like everybody who's on here thinks that their stuff is the best stuff, you know? And so it does. It can get a little samey over, over time where it's like, okay, I you know, it's like this is a unique concept, but it's, it's I weird and whatever, I don't identify with it because it's not my idea.

00:55:05:26 - 00:55:28:05
Unknown
But but as a creator, a creative person, I enjoy the kind of unfettered ability to just take a random idea and turn it into something in me which I stand for. Right? That's that's that to me, the death of Best Media is all about enabling people to be creative on their own. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is this is A11 of many ways to do that.

00:55:28:05 - 00:55:47:11
Unknown
I suppose. Before we ran out this section, let's talk real quick about the ad market, because, you know, I was just showing off Zora. And it's very easy to use these tools to create something that's sort of convincing, I suppose. Well, you know, we've got, you know, two companies who are now integrating it into their ad campaigns.

00:55:47:11 - 00:56:14:13
Unknown
Google has an ad, its first ad, my understanding, created entirely with its Vo three, tool, along with other, Google AI tools. It's basically a Thanksgiving themed ad starring a plushy like, turkey and the whole thing for the most part, I think created with, I, you know, not human hands. They avoided the uncanny valley because they didn't actually put human faces in here.

00:56:14:13 - 00:56:37:15
Unknown
So it's it's not easy to look at it and be like, oh, that doesn't look right because it's all or here comes the, the Actors Union's after them. Yeah, totally, totally. So Google has done this also Coke, which, last year, which did this last year, which, which, which was uncanny Valley and bothered people. This yes tried a lot harder.

00:56:37:15 - 00:56:58:15
Unknown
And the videos there if you go down is it is it embedded on the page. Yeah. It is there somewhere. Oh there it is. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. This time no humans except for, I think, the hand of Santa. Or maybe this is a different video than the one that I saw, but using pretty much entirely, animals, animated animals, which are a lot easier to get away with.

00:56:58:15 - 00:57:19:25
Unknown
Yeah. Safer. I guess last year the vehicles had wheels that weren't actually turning while they were driving. So that was another tail. So these companies are leaning more into generative AI, and the production cost of this is, is nothing compared to what it would be if they tried to animate it in any old way and production time.

00:57:19:25 - 00:57:38:17
Unknown
Yes. I think that with the Coca Cola story, I think they said, you know, often in years past they're working on these things for an entire year and one way or another leading up and in this case, the studio spent a month on it, but they still employed 120 people working on it in many different ways. If you go to the very end, you're going to see AI Santa.

00:57:38:20 - 00:58:02:06
Unknown
If you think about AI Santa's face and all, oh yeah, you're right. Okay, sorry. Let me show you. Don't forget the famous Coke ad with Santa. Really needs Santa in our image of him. And so there is AI, Santa, the cheering animals, AI Santa with a little bit of glossy, glossy quality. Yeah, but very, very true. They're kind of the original.

00:58:02:08 - 00:58:38:28
Unknown
Yeah. Poster of AI Santa. There was like. I mean, not getting much uncanny valley out of that, but maybe 4 or 5 figures. I think we're good. One knows two. And, and, some brand coherence in the in the logo, of course. Yeah. In the Google story specifically, I think the, what is the someone in that story said that Google or the story pointed out that Google does not point out, that the ad is AI generated.

00:58:39:01 - 00:59:06:18
Unknown
Their belief is that most people don't care about the the method of production, which is probably very true. Most people don't care about that and that the tools will become standard. Kind of like Photoshop. Yeah. Which I think that's I think that's true. This is all I think that's true. I think that's absolutely true. Yep. Yeah. You know, I had so I2I moments there's a commercial for a, a mutual fund company or something like you retirement.

00:59:06:20 - 00:59:28:00
Unknown
And there's a young woman who's working and then talking to an advisor and then walking down the street and looking hopeful, and I, I asked my my wife, daughter. I said, does that look like a real person? Does that look like I. And they struggle to be like, what are you talking about? But I'm starting to now look at every commercial wondering, well, yeah, it was really accurate or whether it was made up.

00:59:28:02 - 00:59:49:25
Unknown
And I think, yeah, because certainly I also this and that, that realm now where that is probably going to happen more and more, we're probably going to see more of that. I had to, make a bunch of appointments, sometime in January. You'll see me with a patch on here because I'm getting cataracts done age. And, so I had to make a whole mess of appointments.

00:59:49:25 - 01:00:14:02
Unknown
And the group that I'm with is become huge and a factory and owned by a private equity and all that. So they're translate trying to use AI stuff for appointments and things. So I got to replace that person and it was a person because I could tell the way they responded to me was in context. Correct. But the voice was weird.

01:00:14:04 - 01:00:40:02
Unknown
And then I wanted to ask her whether it was that service that takes an accent and accents it. Oh, I didn't, but that would have been horribly insulting. Like, you had a robot. I couldn't do that. I, I listen, this is just a professional curiosity. This isn't an attack or anything. Yeah. But I'm dying to know whether I, you know, how often my encountering AI.

01:00:40:02 - 01:00:54:09
Unknown
The New York Times said, well, I hate this, I hate this, I hate this. When journalist with these I gave up AI for a week. And this is how life is. Who care to stop, right? So there was another story. Like this guy gave up AI and she has to pull out a paper map to figure out where to go.

01:00:54:09 - 01:01:18:13
Unknown
It's just stupid. No. Plain stupid. But it is interesting to contemplate as you go through your day where all of my am I encountering AI in ways that I don't know. So it's just, yeah, it's just a commercial or it's a phone call or it's, an answer you get from from a company. Was I say not probably.

01:01:18:18 - 01:01:38:17
Unknown
Probably most of the people that listened and watched this podcast, we all think we're really good at identifying it, and we probably are better than a lot of other people at identifying it, but that's a really great question. Where is where has AI been? And we didn't catch it because almost certainly that's oh yeah we happen. Oh yeah.

01:01:38:20 - 01:01:58:01
Unknown
Yeah. And a lot of times they don't we probably aren't as good as we think we are. It's, it's it's bad for their brand or they're going to get accused of of stealing jobs from actors or whatever. But yeah, it's it's around us. Interesting, fascinating. I want to throw a quick thank you to ozone nightmare at the end of our second story.

01:01:58:01 - 01:02:19:10
Unknown
I think the OpenAI cloud computing deal with Amazon had this to say, through us. Super. Thanks. So thank you. Ozone nightmare says the concerning thing right now is how investment announcements feel. Like a greased table where numbers are just being swirled around without real regard to delivering anything tangibly beneficial. Amen. Yeah. Amen. Totally agree. Thank you for that.

01:02:19:12 - 01:02:48:28
Unknown
Thank you for that. We will get to a story. Shortly. Is a tease on anthropic. Maybe that's changing. Yeah, potentially. So. Potentially. So, real quick, I just want to say that I, I'm trying something with the AI inside the YouTube channel. So if you go to, youtube.com slash at AI Inside Show or just do a search for AI inside on YouTube, you'll find I've got a new section down here for hands on videos.

01:02:49:03 - 01:03:10:20
Unknown
I did a hands on with a, service called Higgs Field, and they have this, aspect and basically it's like a Swiss Army knife for, AI generative AI image and video creation. So it takes a bunch of different models and you can do all these different things. And they have this, this thing called Higgs field popcorn that basically takes a single image and turns it into a storyboard.

01:03:10:26 - 01:03:30:18
Unknown
And then you can take that storyboard and bring it into places like Sora and other places and animate from them, or create like an ad campaign. Or you can do all this really interesting, weird stuff with it. So, so if that sounds appealing, go to the end. And, and it sort of looks like me. Not entirely. But anyways, go to YouTube.

01:03:30:19 - 01:03:47:22
Unknown
We do have a YouTube channel. Just search for AI inside the podcast or AI Inside Show, and we live stream our podcast when we do it like we are this one as well. So go subscribe. Lots of different things happening on that channel and we appreciate if you do that. Let me let me add a question that.

01:03:47:22 - 01:04:08:14
Unknown
Yeah, folks. Sure. Because, Jason, I've been talking about this. If you watch that, is that the kind of thing you would want to appear in your subscription to the podcast? Right. Like on On the Stream, you know, like if you, if you were to watch us that way, that's that's my guess. Yeah. Right. Because or should have just stay separately on the YouTube where you go to it.

01:04:08:16 - 01:04:24:26
Unknown
Is it okay if you got extra things through the week like that. Oh, you mean like in the podcast in the podcast feed, right. Yeah. Curious about is that is that good to have some extra stuff, some little bonuses. You watch them. You don't want the ones that are outside in the news. That's just curious about that.

01:04:24:26 - 01:04:46:22
Unknown
I mean this might be a little challenging because it's very visual. Yeah. And the podcast for like for interviews and that kind of stuff. But yeah. Yeah for interviews and stuff. Absolutely. For something like this, you know, it's very visual. It would be really hard to, to put this on a podcast feed and have the audio podcast listeners, follow along, but I am super curious to know.

01:04:46:22 - 01:05:05:13
Unknown
Yeah. What else we have to feed you? Yes. Yeah. We have a pretty clearly defined kind of thing that we do with the podcast and, just looking for ways to kind of broaden that out and offer more of what you might like. So yeah, let us know. Contact at AI inside dot show is a great email to share that with us.

01:05:05:13 - 01:05:06:10
Unknown
We appreciate you.

01:05:06:10 - 01:05:13:10
Unknown
All right. Let's take a quick break. Do a quick speed round on the other side and get you out of here. That's coming up here in a second.

01:05:15:00 - 01:05:42:15
Unknown
Okay. A few quick bits of news before we, round things out. Google removed its Gemma AI model from its AI studio, which AI studio is kind of way where just basic everyday users and consumers can use some of its tools in collaboration with other things. Senator Marsha Blackburn had accused a Gemma of generating, you know, I guess accused Google, who runs Gemma.

01:05:42:16 - 01:06:12:02
Unknown
However, you want to say that of generating defamatory claims about her and other conservatives. She says the generations included fabrications and bias and, yeah, accused the model of defamation. Google, ended up removing Gemma from consumer use inside of its AI studio tool as a response, and is basically going to keep it available to developers via the API access and not offered to consumer use.

01:06:12:02 - 01:06:36:23
Unknown
Thank you so much, Senator. So so here's the fascinating thing about about Blackburn. She's becoming an AI troll, that is to say, a troll of AI. When I testified before the Senate subcommittee, the Commerce Committee and the Senate, she was there and she made a big theatrical point of having, asked ChatGPT to write a tribute poem to Donald Trump and it wouldn't and it wouldn't.

01:06:36:23 - 01:06:56:20
Unknown
And she that she asked it to do one for, for for Joe Biden. And it did. And she proceeded to recite it, which was pretty embarrassing. But that's what, they've got to be careful, because that's what these politicians and media will do, is they're going to they're going to find every way they can to trip them up and troll them.

01:06:56:22 - 01:07:18:16
Unknown
So, Senator Troll. Interesting. Yeah. And I mean, as I've even discovered with Sora, even when you have guardrails and you have things that are off limits, depending on how you ask questions, depending on, you know, you can get real creative and get around those things. And, you know, we talked about, you know, how long does it take to get there?

01:07:18:17 - 01:07:38:06
Unknown
Yeah, exactly. You know, it's it's not spitting out these things every other second. It might spit it out once every two weeks because someone tried consistently day after day after day after day to try and trip it up that one time. But and so is that. You also don't know whether whether Blackburn, primed it by saying, you know, that you are playing a very nasty reporter.

01:07:38:06 - 01:08:00:01
Unknown
Totally. That's that's kind of my point. Yeah, that's that's part of my point is, yeah, you can get these things to do crazy things like that. And to prove your point, if, if you know how to work with them, I guess. But, yeah. Interesting. According to the information, anthropic expects $70 billion in revenue, $17 billion in cash flow by 2028.

01:08:00:03 - 01:08:29:27
Unknown
It's driven by its increased, enterprise adoption of all of its AI products. So it has a very, inflated view. Maybe inflated is the wrong word, but it's very optimistic. Let's say there we go. Partnerships with Microsoft, Salesforce, Deloitte, cognizant, just to name a few. And it's it's forecasting some pretty significant profit margins. Yet anthropic, is an interesting company because, it's it's the king, as far as I can tell.

01:08:29:27 - 01:08:47:29
Unknown
I'm not a coder, but coders seem to still like it best using that. And then last week, the Wall Street Journal had a story, an analysis saying that OpenAI is less flashy. Rival anthropic might have a better business model, and it's focusing on corporate customers rather than the mass market. So it's a bit under the radar in terms of media.

01:08:47:29 - 01:09:07:07
Unknown
It's not seen in a very hot story. You're not going to see, Ronald McDonald robbing a bank on it. But they're trying to build things that have value, and we see too little of that, the AI world. So my hat's off to anthropic for trying to do that. And in the past, I used to praise perplexity along that line.

01:09:07:07 - 01:09:28:21
Unknown
But they mainly do things for theatrical, attention. And in fact, I think it's rapping is trying to really build something here. So it'll be interesting to keep watching them. Interesting. I knew that this one, this next one is for you, Jeff. Archive key site. You know, we have a segment that we sometimes do the, Jeff's archive showdown.

01:09:28:21 - 01:09:56:21
Unknown
I think we called it for no great reason. Archive is this site. And by the way, it's spelled r x IV, but it's a key site for academic research. Jeff. Yeah, it's kind of a great reference. That Jeff, definitely scans through pretty regularly banning Computer Science Review articles and, computer science position papers because they say they're battling a surge of low effort, AI generated submissions that are hitting the site.

01:09:56:23 - 01:10:17:06
Unknown
Now, authors must provide documentation of successful peer review for these types of articles, and archive may expand to other fields as well. They continue to see that low effort content kind of flooding through. There's a humanities version that's going through somewhat the same thing, and it's limiting themselves. In this case, it's a narrow ban on article reviews and position papers.

01:10:17:08 - 01:10:36:29
Unknown
Because those I think were the easiest to just gin up. But yeah, it's a huge issue. I'm going to be on a panel next week. Discussion in front of an audience of ghost writers. Oh, wow. Which is kind of interesting, because was the ghost. In either case, there's a middle person writing the book for you.

01:10:37:01 - 01:11:02:03
Unknown
Is it a human or is it AI? Is the big question. That's ghost writers. But one of the questions being asked to the panelists beforehand, and I hate panel prep calls. God, do I hate them? Because you end up getting into the discussion just as long as the panel discussion. But anyway, what are the questions they were asking was, do we have any estimate of how many books are being submitted to publishers now that are made by how many are being published?

01:11:02:03 - 01:11:29:25
Unknown
They're being submitted for review. They're just made by AI. We don't really have a good sense of the volume. That's what we said. A few minutes ago. You see a commercial, you don't know whether how do you read anymore? Yep. No. How do you know? So the same thing with the same exact thing as hitting academic papers. And obviously there's a higher, risk here because people might try to make decisions based on what they think is a credible academic paper.

01:11:29:27 - 01:11:49:24
Unknown
And it may not be. Yeah. Very interesting. Yeah. How do you, you know, and how do you feel if somewhere down the line that your favorite book of the year, you realize after the fact was written by, you know, now that you knew it going in, but you find out afterwards you're like, oh man, I love that book.

01:11:49:24 - 01:12:08:04
Unknown
And then you find out after that's, that's going to or that song that you really liked was, was made up on zoom some. Oh no, not sumo suit. Oh no. Yeah, yeah. So was the wrestling. Who knows? The song, or that that picture you thought was just beautiful. Was it a photograph or wasn't the painting it was made up by AI.

01:12:08:04 - 01:12:31:06
Unknown
Yeah. Yeah, it does that does that affect it? What is beauty? Right, right. That's why I say like, seeing it after the fact. Like if you enjoyed it and you did, you didn't question it or you thought there's no way and hack this was generated by AI. And then you find out after the fact, after you've already enjoyed it, you've gotten your like human kind of thing from it.

01:12:31:08 - 01:12:51:02
Unknown
And that's why I asked about the value that you get from, Sora. Sora, you. No sumo card brands are. They're all oh. Because if it if it had value to you put. Yeah, that's that's sufficient. Did you feel fooled on on. Sora? You certainly don't, you know. Oh, you know what? Meaning? You know, all of it is.

01:12:51:02 - 01:13:14:07
Unknown
Is is is artificial. The problem is. And if you read an explanation of something on Google search and you learn from it, and it's true, so that's a big if, then the value is there, it's okay. But the question is where is the value in knowing something was done by a human being? What what is the essence of human creativity is something we have to grapple with now.

01:13:14:10 - 01:13:42:06
Unknown
It's not just churning out something we call content, right? Right. Totally true. And finally, Google wants to launch solar powered AI data centers into space. It is this is an article from read Albert Gotti from semaphore about Project Sun Catcher, which addresses energy demands. Also the carbon footprint of of all those data centers, you know, here on planet.

01:13:42:08 - 01:14:03:10
Unknown
The way to cool. Pretty easily. Yeah, well, cool them and yet. Well, I guess they're not close enough to the sun to get any heat, right? Yeah, they'd be cool. But they are getting the solar energy because they're right. Yeah. Orbiting the sun for constant solar power. And then, yeah, you're right. I hadn't thought about that cooling from from space.

01:14:03:12 - 01:14:37:09
Unknown
Along with wireless communication, there's a 2027 test planned with the hope for, something that is economically viable by 2035. They also have to figure out, radiation. Yeah. What will that affect? These chips? They're they're incredibly delicate. We're talking such tiny, tiny, tiny, distances on them. What can be affected? But it'll be interesting to see, we talk a lot about Google's, moonshots.

01:14:37:09 - 01:14:59:09
Unknown
This is actually it's it's sun shot. Yeah. All right. We've reached the end of this episode. Jeff. Always a good time. Thank you so much for for being with me each and every week. And, everybody should go to Jeff Jarvis. Dot com to see the excellent artwork on the cover of his upcoming book, Hot Type Dog. Right.

01:14:59:12 - 01:15:21:15
Unknown
I know him, yes. Not me that gave somebody who asked me to. Yeah. Awesome. Hot tip. Is there a Gutenberg parenthesis magazine? The web we we've. Everything you need to know about Jeff's work can be found at Jeff jarvis.com. Thank you. Jeff. This was a blast. Thank you my friend. Great episode today. I inside dot show. For all the information that you need about this show, you can find it there and then.

01:15:21:16 - 01:15:43:15
Unknown
Yes of course Patreon.com slash ironside show. If you want to elevate your involvement with the show, show your appreciation and ensure that the show continues. You can go to Patreon.com slash I inside show and you can support us at any level. We would appreciate it. But if you're an executive producer, you get special, you get special attention.

01:15:43:15 - 01:16:03:22
Unknown
Doctor Due Jeffrey Cheyney, Radio Asheville, one of 3.7 Dante Saint James Bond, Eric Jason night for Jason Brady, Anthony Downs and Mark starker. If you run into any of them on the street, you can say thank you because they are they are very critical to this show, as are all of our patrons. But they give just a little something extra.

01:16:03:22 - 01:16:14:15
Unknown
So we appreciate that. Thank you everybody. Good times. And, had a lot of fun today. And we will see you next time on the next episode of Eye Inside. Bye, buddy.